Thursday, May 26, 2011

A Christian vs. an "unbeliever" Argue the point - Special Ed.

Currently there is an ongoing argument on a Facebook page. I posted about the nutbar Harold Camping, an innocent comment, an update if you will.

My cousin responded with another innocent comment. Then her friend, someone we've both known since high school, for my cousin she may have known her earlier even. I responded to her friend. Then she responded to me and that, was where things began to go downhill.

A religionist's view of the Godly
I feel that most Christians, most religious types in general, have an idealized idea of Life, God, and religion. Pretty divorced from reality, which is the purpose. To explain away the unknown, the fearful you cannot do anything about. They cannot accept that we are bags of water, made of meat, are really no more important than any other life form, other than we have an opposable thumb and can rationalize and consider our own death. Two things that have lead to great things, I agree.

But does that make us so important just because we can invent God to explain those things we cannot truly stand to consider? Okay, No is the answer. People seem to have a need to be lead. So, follow this. Life is precious, because it exists. Magic exists because we do not understand physics, or because we have imaginations. Religion is based upon magical thought. Buddhism in my mind is not, but even there, over the centuries, people have forced it into that box also.

Try to forgive the grammar, the rambling and such, as this was not written to be published but was a live interchange between two very disparate people.

Just remember, Ghandi, wasn't Christian. And no, that has no bearing on anything here....

This can't happen

Here, in it's ongoing entirety, regardless of how badly it makes me look, is what transpired:

I initially posted:

Word has it that Harold Camping has said that there will be earthquakes all around the world on May 21, 2011 at 6 pm in each country's time zone, meaning the earthquakes would be at different times. In karibati its already May 22, 2011 and there were no earthquakes. :)

Then my cousin posted:

And we are both still here :-)

And then, her Christian friend posted:

He is a loon....and he has given Christians a bad name, as people tend to like to view us like he is...but we are not, and the Lord will return...but we all know that we do not know when, and only God knows. He is not slow, as many people t...hink...He is giving people time to repent and be saved, because he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. But, yeah...this guy's a nut ball...But do not mock the Lord because of some crazy guy. Just sayin....

Since no one does know when the time will be...or when they will take their last breath....we are all one breath away from eternity with God or eternity in Hell. And that is what is true. ♥

I responded:
O'Sensei Morohei Ueshiba Founder of Aikido
Being essentially a Buddhist, an Aikidoka (or, Aikidoist) and for all intents and purposes an Atheist [author's note: I might say I'm not, but then "believers" get carried away because they cannot understand my reasoning].... I mock mostly a nutcase. Camping now says that this will all happen in October.

The friend responded:

And people will do the same thing they did with this last one...sad innit? Sorry you are those things.

I replied:

You do realize that is condescending, right? I was raised catholic, head alter boy, born again christian, studied religions and the bible, for more than the first half of my life, have a BA in psychology, phenomenology, and studied classical and Asian philosophies and physics. I have a fairly good idea of what is going on. :) I welcome you to believe whatever you like. Please don't think I'm uninformed or have made poor decisions on eschatology, revealed religions or magical thought by way of organized religious organizations.

She replied:

I know you were raised Catholic, as was [your cousin and my friend]...and I am sorry for that as well. It is a religion based on works, and you guys are not the only ones that have come out of it messed up about Christ, and that makes me sad for ya. It is not condescending at all...I truly am sorry that you are in those things, because they are lies and I hate to see anyone roped in and perishing. It is tragic, and needless, and that is just as sad as the people who buy into the Camping garbage.

Basically, them's figtin' words, and so I then replied:

Uh, really? So, I appreciate then "intent" behind your words, but you really don't see what you are saying in the way you are saying what you are saying. If you see what I'm saying. :) Catholicism is messed up, but it has done some people some good. It has also lead people astray, and has lead to the murders of millions over the centuries. Another well intentioned organized religious movement based upon yet another "desert religion" such as Judaism, Islam and Christianity. You have to take many things into consideration if you are going to randomly believe in a form of thought.

Christians form their beliefs off of the bible, but if you look into where the bible came from, how it was put together, what books they left out, destroyed in th interim until the bible became the law of the land at pain of death, and the murders perpetrated upon those who believed in the books that were not included in the bible because they portrayed Jesus too much as a man, you have to question the basis of your primary word, and the beliefs that came from those, and the changes put into place over the centuries in using the bible as a form of thought control.

As you are sorry for me because of my believing in the best of Buddhist thought, and it's own inquiry upon itself. "If you see Buddha upon the path kill him", refers to what the Buddha originally said, which was when you are taught things previously unknown to you, especially in absolutes like the God concept, question it and use your own mind to see what is foolish.

And so, in reciprocation, I have to feel sorry for not only all those who are addicted to religious and magical thought but to desert religion believers in particular. There is something about religions born of a tough environment such as the desert, with highly ignorant peoples, as those were, in ancient times where knowledge in general had much to do will fear of the unknown and a omnipotent concept to protect them, that begets such convoluted beliefs. Asian philosophies were far more succinct and avoided the magical far more than those more ignorant tribes of the deserts in the middle east.
Emperor Constantine
Constantine's Council of Nicaea
The council of Nicaea and Constantine himself, as were the missionaries throughout history, were a blight upon humanity. But then, people should have the choice to believe whatever nonsense they want to believe, but merely because the nature of the human makeup, requires tolerance, otherwise, we degenerate into murder and what we see in the Muslim fundamentalist terrorists.

Christopher Hitchens and brother Peter

Of course I wish everyone well in their endeavors. I'm just saddened, as is Christopher Hitchens and his type, by the lack of rational minds throughout the cultures of religious organizations and individuals. Hopefully in the end, religion will eventually die out and Humankind will be elevated to the sane and useful. We waste far too much time, money, and resources in elevating individuals and organizations (who don't pay taxes) on religious considerations when ethical and philosophical would be far more useful.

I'm awaiting her reply....

I got her reply....

Like I is really sad. :-( So much knowledge and so little of it applies nor can save. Maybe you aren't used to someone being genuinely sad for the state of your soul, but I truly am. The cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. And that is really heartbreaking to me. And to God, as well. He will convey that when you meet Him face to face, I am sure.

I guess I will just leave you with this, and then we can have different conversations...;-))

I hope you will take it seriously, but if not...I tried. ♥

‎1 Corinthians 1:18 -- For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Like I said, ain't gonna happen, too bad....
My reply:

It's good that you have found something in your life to give you focus and direction. For myself, justifying something from within its own paradigm doesn't supply support something that is necessarily real. If you have ever read the Urantia book, it too is justifiable in it's own logic and amazing texture and sophistication. Yet in looking at how it was created and from whence is sprung into this world, it becomes obvious what happened and just how much it should be given credence, or not.

We all need something to hold onto and have a belief of something beyond ourselves, which lightens the burden. Since we have to get through life and be as highly functional as possible, which is also best for culture and the species, I laid to rest my desires to correct or rectify those of false faith decades ago. False in being misinformed and believing fiction.

What I found was that it is important to enjoy the journey, to find a way to be happy in life. Since we all live within a delusion anyway, I'm not sure how it matters whether it's true or real or not. As long as we do our best to do no harm, then we can consider it good. Things sound far better from the outside looking in. But once you get on the inside looking out, you see the problems.

The old adage that a prophet is never listened to in his own village, supported by the story of Jesus, that is to say, Yeshua, has a great deal of relevance. It was pretty disillusioning to find out how easily the bible falls apart once you look at who, how and why it was put together. It was built for the purpose of controlling a crumbling regime, it's that simple. Same with the Qua'ran (Koran).

Faith is a strong force, we just need to be careful that we are aware of what we aim it at. I asked my mother once, why she believed some of the nonsense she believed and she said, my parents taught it to me so I know it is right. Yet, she was happy in her own delusion. In the end, however, it was what destroyed her. That and mental illness I suppose. Drugs were just a symptom. Christianity is dysfunctional unless you pick and choose what makes it work for you, but if you pay attention to what is taught and what is written, it falls apart pretty quickly; that is why the new testament was put together, because the old was completely dysfunctional.

Well, you see, you can't quote from something to justify its existence, relevance, or truth. You have to go outside of it. Learn how it came to be. Otherwise, you set yourself up for being misled. Who controlled the bible for millenia? What is the meaning of the words back when it was written, and before, for the parts that were word of mouth until they were written? What was said, misremembered and incorrectly written? Who changed what for their own purposes.

How do you know what you believe, based upon "the word" really is the word? I suspect, if Yeshua (Jesus actual name, if you called him "Jesus" he wouldn't respond, you see, anymore than you would if your name was Yeselda and someone called you, Jane). came back now, he wouldn't even recognize what he started, certainly he wouldn't recognize who Jesus is, by name or intent.  It's an amazing book, don't get me wrong, but not to base religions on. I think for myself, I would just prefer to find a more positive life evoking way of viewing the world. I find it sad that those middle eastern religions are so death oriented, so self consuming.

Again, I don't mind people believing what ever they want, I just react to their trying to place judgement upon a fellow delusional human in saying their delusion is superior to my own and thereby, feel "sorry" for me. And that's about it. So, if nothing else, we can agree to disagree. The problem is, you can't do that, can you. Not really. It's intrinsic in the religion. Once you organize a religion, you begin to kill what was good about it and those in charge get their own agendas and greed takes over, greed of money, power, spiritual eletism and a creedo not to question. 

At this point, someone else joined in:

OK, I'm going to say something. Firstly, nobody should apologize anyone else for being the way they are. That isn't very enlightened, next; Dude, you quoted someone to make your point too. I personally thing that if God is infinite, then all that is real and potential is God. Science studies the body, and the mind cannot be contemplated to full understanding because there is more information than any collected of human minds can understand. Let alone ascended beings.

Now, if there is a "God" separate from the physical universe and consciousness network of all sentient and tran-sentient life forms, then it would be divorced from the whole by not "being" the whole. It would be assumed that to create and not be the creation at the same time, you are limited in your connection. If this is so, we can assume it is possible for a Supremely powerful being to exist eventuated the actual creation of the universes. 

This being could create "realms" such as heaven, hell, purgatory, and more. However, the concept of God has been developing and becoming more and more complicated which each genetic evolution of our species. So at some point, our future assumptions of God will out ride the assumed "Creator God' manifest state and move into a "Non separate-non creator entity." This would be a God that always has been that IS the mono universe of universes which has not created anything, but has been and always will be all the could be. 

In the fourth dimension, and moments and events are happening at the same time in different geographical locations. The universe was never created, it has always been, therefor there is no need for the presumed God creator to exist outside our own creation of this entity. This God does in fact exist, but the only effect it has on the universe, is that which the human thought creators allow it to effect based off the rules we give it. This changing from one mind structure to the next.

My reply:

I suspect there is some validity in this contention. :)

His reply:

I think I covered everything I was wanting to say. There is a God if you want there to be. Outside of the mind, there really is no need for a true "God" outside some form of Chief operating executive keeping the form of all existence in tac...t. However, there would be no "body" form separate from the universal structure being maintained. A universal "spirit operator-consciousness collective" is completely possible. The soul within the machine. Outside of this, there is no need for a "Mother/Father" entity. Additionally, I doubt something like this entity or any other has a single gender if holding to this dichotomy at all.

My reply:

I like to think about the ants, and yes this is off topic but interesting. If they have a supranatural communicative connection, beyond sound, body language, etc., would that neural net connection be considered by them, to be their God? It would take on a form for them, that could be construed beyond themselves, even though it is only them. Yes?

His reply:

That is what I am implying yes. We create what we think God is. If there is a God, No species, no matter the time period, will ever fully understand this metaphysical, meta mind being. For it is not separate from the creation. The creation it self may also have no limit on the whole yet there is limit to individual forms within the design. Similar to a Mandelbrot fractal.

My comment:

Nuff' said. There will be no agreement with the nice Christian lady and the weird Buddhist guy. People are different and there will always be those who think their reality presupposes another's. It's what makes this world go around. And that's okay. The trouble comes in when others want to force their beliefs in whatever way they find appropriate. We need to be able to agree to disagree. Or there simply is, no hope.

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